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Chem Rework?


EVIL_ED

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Is it true that we're getting a Chem Rework that is going to ruin Chem by getting rid of the Chem Dispensers and thus the infinite chemicals? Some Chemist told me that and now I'm wondering. Because Chem is my favorite Job and I HATE mixing in the Chem Master.

Edited by kaishiba
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59 minutes ago, EVIL_ED said:

Is it true that we're getting a Chem Rework that is going to ruin Chem by getting rid of the Chem Dispensers and thus the infinite chemicals? Some Chemist told me that and now I'm wondering. Because Chem is my favorite Job and I HATE mixing in the Chem Master.

why the hell are they reworking more shit I get how its not a dev team its seperate devs but can any of you do anything besides REWORK SHIT

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I'm not the best at navigating discord as I hate using it and hardly do. But, from what little I could piece together, it does look like the Chemist I talked with in SS14 was right about a Chem Rework in the works that would get rid of Infinite Chems and the Chem Dispenser 'as we know it.'

I've already unlocked Chemist on Delta V and I'm trying to find a way to reach out to them over this issue in the hopes of convincing them to keep the current Chem System if this happens on SS14. I think keeping the old inventory has done well for boosting Delta V's player base because they are catching the overflow of people who left SS14 over this major change. I think they could catch even more if they also preserve the current Chem System.

I can't get their discord link to work and I don't see an e-mail on their site. Does anyone know a good way to contact the people in charge of Delta V?

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8 hours ago, The0ddsAreAgainstMe said:

why the hell are they reworking more shit I get how its not a dev team its seperate devs but can any of you do anything besides REWORK SHIT

From what I can tell it's really just the taste of the people in charge of SS14. They really want to dig in far harder into the RPG mechanics side of things than I care to go.

Grid inventory with only one window open at a time forces inventory management, an RPG mechanic element. Finite Chems forces Chem management, another RPG mechanic element.

RPG games are full of artificial scarcity and purposefully cumbersome user interfaces to force 'realistic' game play. 'You only have two hands, so it's more realistic that you can only have one inventory window open at a time.'

It's a design philosophy that I deeply, deeply, deeply hate. It's what makes most RPG games an absolute slog to play and it is specifically why I don't play most RPG games. I fell in love with SS14 largely because it didn't have all of this intentionally overly cumbersome bull crap that adds nothing to the game except making it more difficult to play so that people can feel like it's a 'legitimate RPG game now.'

The further the team takes SS14 in this direction, the further they drive me away from the game.

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I can understand the backlash to some recent UI changes, but this seems like an overreaction. It seems like a good thing that chemists wont just be sitting in their little box for the whole shift mindlessly clicking the chem dispenser button. There are a lot of ways of getting chems already in the game which are super underutilized at the moment; cargo can order stuff, atmos can condense stuff, botany can grow stuff. I dont think changes which encourage people to work together are such a bad thing.

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2 minutes ago, JoeTheJanitor said:

I can understand the backlash to some recent UI changes, but this seems like an overreaction. It seems like a good thing that chemists wont just be sitting in their little box for the whole shift mindlessly clicking the chem dispenser button. There are a lot of ways of getting chems already in the game which are super underutilized at the moment; cargo can order stuff, atmos can condense stuff, botany can grow stuff. I dont think changes which encourage people to work together are such a bad thing.

I do, because from my personal experience, people don't work together. If they did, I wouldn't mind this change. But, the reality is, they don't.

It's why I hate playing Chemist on Detroit and don't play Chemist anymore when I'm on Detroit.

Without the Chem Dispenser, I spent the first 20+ minutes of my shift begging idiots to give me the pieces to build one while a crap ton of people were dying in Medical.

Science sent me to Supplies. Supplies sent me to Science. Lord knows begging for anything from supplies is a nightmare. You might, MIGHT, get what you desperately need right now this second in about 20 minutes if the idiot desk clerk remembers to A: order it and B: let you know it arrived.

This is going to be hilariously bad for the entire station because it would take that disaster of a round and make every round like that.

'Run out of Chems to make Meds with? Don't worry! Just go ask Cargo for it and wait 20-30 minutes while 20+ people die in the examination room.'

Cargo does NOT prioritize Medical. They treat our requests as equally important as everyone else's. But, the difference being, if Science doesn't get their request ASAP, they are slightly slowed on performing non-vital work. If Med doesn't get their request ASAP, about 10+ people die in like 5 minutes.

The time it takes a person from going crit to dying is very fast. We have a very short window to defib and inject with the meds we need. There is no room for error. It's already a significant challenge to manage this in the current system if the Chemist is an idiot and doesn't keep the basic meds stocked at all times. Could you imagine the carnage if the Chemist is stopped in his work because he ran out of Chems? All it takes is one bombing happening at the wrong time and you'll have 15-20 people dead before Supplies even bothers to let Chemist know they decided to start moving on his order for the Meds he needed 10 minutes ago.

I hope if they really plan to do this they at least have the common sense to at least triple the size of the morgue so that we have places to dump all the dead bodies.

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If anyone can confirm for me this is happening, please let me know. I have been hearing murmurs about it under people's breathes for a while now. Then, last night, this one Chemist on SS14 drilled into me that he 'knew' with 'absolute certainty' that this was happening and coming 'soon.'

He forced me to store Chems in the Freezer because 'Soon they will start going bad if I don't and it's best to get used to the new best practices.' He then went on to describe how Chems will no longer be infinite and how the Chem Dispenser is going away.

I am trying to see if there is any real proof to confirm or deny what he said. But, he literally stood there and argued with me for several minutes about how this was 'for sure going to happen' and that it's happening 'soon.'

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https://github.com/space-wizards/space-station-14/milestone/3

Chemistry as you know it wont stick around forever, and I am excited for the changes. 

A note from the game's steam page states
 This Early Access game is not complete and may or may not change further. 
Changes are going to be a part of the game. Its natural for a game, as it develops, to make changes that are unrecognizable from previous builds and versions. Getting upset at a early access game for making changes to a system, is like getting upset at a fish for swimming. What the hell were you expecting to happen?

image.thumb.png.9d73c97e29d1ab92e3bbbd235daf6713.png

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13 hours ago, JoeTheJanitor said:

I can understand the backlash to some recent UI changes, but this seems like an overreaction. It seems like a good thing that chemists wont just be sitting in their little box for the whole shift mindlessly clicking the chem dispenser button. There are a lot of ways of getting chems already in the game which are super underutilized at the moment; cargo can order stuff, atmos can condense stuff, botany can grow stuff. I dont think changes which encourage people to work together are such a bad thing.

You havent played chem

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1 hour ago, The0ddsAreAgainstMe said:

Nobody liked the tetrisr rework and nobody is excited for your shitty chem rework

You don't speak for everyone.

1 hour ago, The0ddsAreAgainstMe said:

You havent played chem

Weak argument. You don't know if they played chem or not.

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1 hour ago, The0ddsAreAgainstMe said:

Nobody liked the tetrisr rework and nobody is excited for your shitty chem rework

You are objectively incorrect, because I liked the tetris rework. Please stop pretending you speak for everyone.

 

On the topic of chem, did you actually read the PR that was linked above before you wrote it off?

 

 

Edited by Errant
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19 hours ago, AjexRose said:

https://github.com/space-wizards/space-station-14/milestone/3

Chemistry as you know it wont stick around forever, and I am excited for the changes. 

A note from the game's steam page states
 This Early Access game is not complete and may or may not change further. 
Changes are going to be a part of the game. Its natural for a game, as it develops, to make changes that are unrecognizable from previous builds and versions. Getting upset at a early access game for making changes to a system, is like getting upset at a fish for swimming. What the hell were you expecting to happen?

Firstly, I wouldn't say that I'm upset at this point. Upset assumes that I care anymore. It's more at the level of I'm just over this game. Secondly, thank you for the honest answer. The rest of this reply is largely at this community in general, not specifically to just you.

It's truly and deeply a disingenuous argument to keep saying 'game is early access so why do you not expect us to keep gutting and reworking everything?'

My responses to this are.

1: Because the game's basic mechanics have been mostly stable for about the last year or two so it's perfectly reasonable to assume that they were going to stay this way forever and that what we would be getting is more content; not more reworks.

2: 'Early access' is a really convenient shield to hide behind, because this game (like many others) hide behind it forever. It's been years. There is an old saying that says 'crap or get off the pot.' Five or ten years from now is the game still going to be gutting and reworking everything; hiding behind the shield of 'early access, so get over it?' It's truly a pretty lame excuse.

3: Not everyone likes the direction that the reworks are going in.

4: The discussions that decide what is being reworked and what direction the reworks are going in seem to be held among the people making the game and not with the community in general who actually play the game.

This often ends up with the event, like the inventory rework, where a giant rework that nobody asked for and nobody wanted that changes how we play the game drastically at a fundamental level gets dropped on us out of nowhere. Then we get a bunch of sycophantic boot lickers dog pile on anyone who doesn't like the rework they didn't want or ask for with statements like 'we should be grateful for the devs who are working on the game, thanks so much devs!' And anyone tied with the game circles back and dog piles with 'game in early access, everything's going to change, get over it.'

For a Free Software project, it really is a striking situation of the tail wagging the dog where the developers steer the project with no real regard with what a large chunk of the users actually want. To the point where they don't even ask what we want.

I do not plan to play regularly on wizard servers anymore. Nor do I plan to have much of a presence on this message board or in this community anymore. I also have no plans to donate here moving forward anymore. Outside of general tech questions / maybe rule clarifications, I plan to basically stay away.

It's clear to me now that the direction wizard is taking this game is too far from what I want this game to be. Any further expenditure of my time here on these issues is useless, because they've made it clear that they really just plain don't care. It's like getting a divorce. As some point you realize that the other person isn't listening and doesn't care and that the relationship is broken completely beyond any hope of repair.

If anyone knows a good way for me to contact Delta V to see what their plans are regarding the Chem Rework, please let me know. Maybe private message me a contact e-mail or something. They didn't apply the horrible Inventory Rework. So, maybe they also plan on not applying the horrible Chem Rework either.

If I can get assurance that they don't plan on applying the horrible Chem Rework, maybe I'll go play and donate over there.

I know I speak freely. People might think I am upset. Upset, again, isn't the right word. Resignation would be a better word. Like turning in a notice to an employer that I'm quitting. I'm trying to jump ship at this point. Because, I realize that this ship is sinking and isn't salvageable. Jump ship either from SS14 to Delta V. Or, depending on how they answers the Chem Rework question; possibly jumping ship from all versions of this game entirely and just moving onto other games.

I really do appreciate your honest answer here. Because it allows me to stop living on false hope that this game is ever going to go back to being what is was for the last twoish years and that it really is set on going in a direction that I absolutely want no part of. It allows me to chart my gaming future and realize that this game has no place in it.

Edited by EVIL_ED
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6 minutes ago, Errant said:

For someone who doesn't care about this place you sure spend a lot of time complaining about it

In the past, yes. But, consider my post above as a 'general' good bye post. The care I showed before was when I still thought there was hope for this game going forward. These is no hope.

I started another thread on a tech question, like I just said I might. But, I don't plan on discussing game issues here going forward because I don't plan on playing on wizard servers in any large way going forward.

I mostly posted the tech question I did because I don't think Space Station Multiverse has a forum and I'm assuming that the compile from source code instructions for the SS14 Launcher will be the same because the new launcher is a fork of this one.

Edited by EVIL_ED
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On 12/29/2023 at 2:30 PM, JoeTheJanitor said:

I can understand the backlash to some recent UI changes, but this seems like an overreaction. It seems like a good thing that chemists wont just be sitting in their little box for the whole shift mindlessly clicking the chem dispenser button. There are a lot of ways of getting chems already in the game which are super underutilized at the moment; cargo can order stuff, atmos can condense stuff, botany can grow stuff. I dont think changes which encourage people to work together are such a bad thing.

Seeing as this is currently what people who play chemist specifically sign up for I can imagine a number of them will not like this change. Some jobs are chosen by people because of the smaller amount of expected player interaction or the comfort of routine. Not saying it should or shouldn't be changed, but saying some players won't have their enjoyment lessened when the chemical dispenser gets removed is disingenuous.
 

On 12/29/2023 at 2:45 PM, EVIL_ED said:

Cargo does NOT prioritize Medical. They treat our requests as equally important as everyone else's.

This is anecdotal, I've seen shifts that contradict what you're saying. But even if we assume it's true that in general cargo does not prioritize medical, I think that when the chemical dispenser gets removed this meta will change.
 

21 hours ago, AjexRose said:

Getting upset at a early access game for making changes to a system, is like getting upset at a fish for swimming. What the hell were you expecting to happen?

There's a distinction between getting upset at change in general and getting upset about specific changes. When considering early access we seem to agree about the former, but I think getting upset at the latter can still be reasonable.
 

3 hours ago, EVIL_ED said:

1: Because the game's basic mechanics have been mostly stable for about the last year or two so it's perfectly reasonable to assume that they were going to stay this way forever and that what we would be getting is more content; not more reworks.

If the Space Wizards Federation was a indie studio making a closed source game I'd agree. But instead it's completely depended on what contributors feel like adding, changing or removing and what they have the time for. You decided to not make a PR, they've decided to make a PR changes a mechanic.
 

3 hours ago, EVIL_ED said:

2: 'Early access' is a really convenient shield to hide behind, because this game (like many others) hide behind it forever. It's been years. There is an old saying that says 'crap or get off the pot.' Five or ten years from now is the game still going to be gutting and reworking everything; hiding behind the shield of 'early access, so get over it?' It's truly a pretty lame excuse.

I don't think this is equivalent seeing as games that hide behind early access aren't free open source games. We're not paying customers. The contributors don't owe us more content, nor are they accountable to us. Apart from that I've heard people make the comparison that SS14 has about 10% of the content of a average SS13 server, and that game's been in development for two decades. So I don't think calling SS14 early access is a stretch.
 

3 hours ago, EVIL_ED said:

3: Not everyone likes the direction that the reworks are going in.

Self-evident.
 

3 hours ago, EVIL_ED said:

4: The discussions that decide what is being reworked and what direction the reworks are going in seem to be held among the people making the game and not with the community in general who actually play the game.

I only speak for myself here, but I don't trust the community to make this game. I trust the community to speak up about what works and especially what does not work. I trust the people making the game to use this information to update the game. I don't expect a customer at a restaurant to instruct the chef how to prepare a meal, that's what the chef's for. I do expect a customer to express themselves after the medium-rare steak they ordered was presented as shoe leather.

"После игры в Dota 2, русские рейдеры на Miros заставляют меня чувствовать себя как дома." - Me

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4 hours ago, EVIL_ED said:

In the past, yes. But, consider my post above as a 'general' good bye post. The care I showed before was when I still thought there was hope for this game going forward. These is no hope.

I started another thread on a tech question, like I just said I might. But, I don't plan on discussing game issues here going forward because I don't plan on playing on wizard servers in any large way going forward.

I mostly posted the tech question I did because I don't think Space Station Multiverse has a forum and I'm assuming that the compile from source code instructions for the SS14 Launcher will be the same because the new launcher is a fork of this one.

There is no hope for you because you want Wizden to be an anarchy server where people can do whatever they want without rules, be racist, sexually harass people and say slurs without getting in trouble.

 

 

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4 hours ago, Bundle said:

Seeing as this is currently what people who play chemist specifically sign up for I can imagine a number of them will not like this change. Some jobs are chosen by people because of the smaller amount of expected player interaction or the comfort of routine. Not saying it should or shouldn't be changed, but saying some players won't have their enjoyment lessened when the chemical dispenser gets removed is disingenuous.
 

This is anecdotal, I've seen shifts that contradict what you're saying. But even if we assume it's true that in general cargo does not prioritize medical, I think that when the chemical dispenser gets removed this meta will change.
 

There's a distinction between getting upset at change in general and getting upset about specific changes. When considering early access we seem to agree about the former, but I think getting upset at the latter can still be reasonable.
 

If the Space Wizards Federation was a indie studio making a closed source game I'd agree. But instead it's completely depended on what contributors feel like adding, changing or removing and what they have the time for. You decided to not make a PR, they've decided to make a PR changes a mechanic.
 

I don't think this is equivalent seeing as games that hide behind early access aren't free open source games. We're not paying customers. The contributors don't owe us more content, nor are they accountable to us. Apart from that I've heard people make the comparison that SS14 has about 10% of the content of a average SS13 server, and that game's been in development for two decades. So I don't think calling SS14 early access is a stretch.
 

Self-evident.
 

I only speak for myself here, but I don't trust the community to make this game. I trust the community to speak up about what works and especially what does not work. I trust the people making the game to use this information to update the game. I don't expect a customer at a restaurant to instruct the chef how to prepare a meal, that's what the chef's for. I do expect a customer to express themselves after the medium-rare steak they ordered was presented as shoe leather.

2 hours ago, kaishiba said:

There is no hope for you because you want Wizden to be an anarchy server where people can do whatever they want without rules, be racist, sexually harass people and say slurs without getting in trouble.

 

 

 

That's an interesting stretch of an attack.

You gotta be pretty desperate to bring up a completely separate issue from a completely separate thread just to have something 'useful' to say.

While my preference would be for an anarchy server, how is that remotely relevant to the topic of game mechanic reworks?

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56 minutes ago, EVIL_ED said:

That's an interesting stretch of an attack.

You gotta be pretty desperate to bring up a completely separate issue from a completely separate thread just to have something 'useful' to say.

While my preference would be for an anarchy server, how is that remotely relevant to the topic of game mechanic reworks?

Because you use the "downfall of ss14"  a lot in your other threads. Nor I was talking about the chem rework.

Thinking that base systems would remain as they would forever is silly.

You have a history of making threads like this whenever changes happen and when people say how things or disagree with you you call them bootlickers, dogs or new generation kids who have soft skin.

So I can't really take your threads seriously especially when you talk about yourself a lot more than anything else. Such as mentioning your patreon cancelation and subbing again as if it'll change anything in the discussion. 

 
Because at the end of the day, this is all just doom talk.

The community can make their own ideas but I will always use the example of The Culling that community votes for everything or "just add what the community wants" is bad game design.

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