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Cargo/Salvage department combat oriented design problems


Changeling

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For all purposes, cargo and salvage can be considered one department and I will be referring to it as cargo in this post.

With expeditions and magnet recovery being heavily combat oriented, cargo will end up with large amount of lethal guns and good armor very early into the shift. It's hard to blame cargo players for not wanting to die, it however is in stark contrast to the other combat oriented department - security. While security has to follow escalation/chain of command and can't simply arm up roundstart with best-in-slot items available for combat, there's no such standards for cargo. It's become completely normal and expected for cargo to order SMGs, riot armor and medical/other supplies for their own use, with complete autonomy and no oversight or interaction with any other department.

Cargo is now a de-facto a military branch of station that is sent out to kill and loot places, with nobody to answer to, no escalation for gearing up, just pure untethered powergaming as (un)intended by being a combat focused department.

 

I propose two separate solutions:

1. Require specific access to place orders, same access as is required to open crates from said orders. This will prevent cargo from gearing up without department interaction and just busting crates open.

2. Separate and rename salvage into an actual military themed department that cannot roll antag status/has severe TC penalties, as they are already geared and equipped for combat. Hold them to same standard as security.

Edited by Changeling
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I 100% agree with everything here.

Atmos was up until very recently locked off from syndie access because of the fact that a smart atmosian can literally plasma flood the station and make it inhabitable for 98% of it's staff, all done with a few rerouted pipes and one ignition. Plus they get heat resistance gear galore, super useful versus lasers. Plus the fireaxe which can get them into anywhere they need to be in just a few swings.

And while this is no longer restricted, seeing as atmosians can now be syndies, it's been absolutely unregulated for salvage this entire time. I don't get why and I do not understand why, as suggested above, salvage traitors don't start with heavily reduced TCs. Free hardsuits, weapons for both melee and ranged, external access and also easy ways of getting rid of evidence are just a few of the reasons why every single syndie enthusiast probably has salvage ticked as a highly wanted job. 

 

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8 hours ago, deltanedas said:

salv is syndie easymode

Facts, I'd like to see He-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named achieve the same things they achieve as a random engi, or, better yet, a passenger role. Up the challenge. Make them get creative. Don't give them an easy mode they don't need.

 

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6 hours ago, NotACat said:

Facts, I'd like to see He-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named achieve the same things they achieve as a random engi, or, better yet, a passenger role. Up the challenge. Make them get creative. Don't give them an easy mode they don't need.

 

They have already.

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People don't, or at least I don't, play salvager because it's easy syndie. Anything is easy Syndie. You can literally teleport a machine pistol into your hands and then buy over 100 bullets for it while wearing a web vest that doesn't slow you down and soaks 70% damage - as you are high on stimulants yelling at your assist objective to loot HoP's ID while your pet carp is munching on captain's dead body. External access and a knife are just perks that go both ways. Rolling syndicate engineer is arguably easier because you can just toggle an APC and entrap or murder people at whim *and* you are okay in spaces you are definitely not supposed to be in just because "oh fuck the power's off let me help" while also spawning in with engineering goggles and insulated gloves. And let me tell you - those are WAY more dangerous than a knife and a PKA. However, it doesn't take a lot of creativity to make other roles as Syndicate work. Scientist? Mass spawn anomalies until one is in your objective's workplace. Janitor? Wait until there's a mess in your objective's workplace. Passenger? I'm lost, can I come into your objective's workplace? You can spawn in as a monkey and play a Syndicate role well given enough time and patience.

There are a few great points. I've long since thought access should be required when accepting, or even placing, high value orders. I, as a Cargo Technician, should not be able to order 3 crates of SMGs, 2 crates of Medical supplies and MRE's to last me an entire nuclear Winter. Requiring access for at least *the placing of the order* for these items should not only be barred via ID, but LOGGED via ID, then literally anybody in cargo can do whatever because they'd either have needed HoS access or HoS is aware of the order having been placed.

Salvage Specialist is an extremely rewarding role because it is mechanic focused, this suits a certain niche of gameplay that is partly hermit roleplay and rewarding memorization of multiple skillsets, reaction time and cognitive abilities. We get to heal fellow new salvagers by using medical knowledge, aim true like William Tell and murder space ticks before they terrorize the station, we get to build a shuttle and fly it to derelict bits of stations or chase a Lone Operative. It provides roleplay about essentially a station-dweller that goes on dangerous external missions - a gritty character who comes back to grab smokes/a drink/a bite to eat and talk to the "locals" while still maintaining a grumpy, but not outright hostile, attitude because, well, bleeding to near-death from bear swipes and carp bites puts a chip on your shoulder. We get to defend Security from external threats every single round while simultaneously assisting the entire station via much needed materials (plastic, anyone?) funds and unobtainable valuables - microstims, exosuits, laser rifles, literal gravity generators, the usual. Nukies have not just SecOff to fear, but the inevitable influx of bloodthirsty pseudo-Cargonians banding together at the foaming mouths.

Donning a bloodred with expedition weaponry is almost suicide nowadays - blowing through armory means nothing when 3 salvagers armed with Deathsquad weaponry come rolling up in a shuttle specifically designed with open bays to throw things in/out of (shuttle parts, materials, bullets.) While I initially saw your point and felt that it might need to be retouched since the Syndicate 10TC enabling, I think you underestimate the amount of pure power that access has. Engineers, paramedics, cargo techs, salvagers, secoffs, all heads, external access is everywhere - just gotta look.

Calling something "untethered powergaming" because it's not your playstyle is a bit of a reach, I don't call people "shameless validhunters" for rolling Security or "wall paint drying enthusiasts" for rolling Engineer. There should be a mutual respect to how many times Salvagers have helped out with Nukies - as well as blood reds in general raiding armory, shit, almost forgot Rat Kings, zombies, fellow Syndies, back when Space Dragons existed, helping engineers with repairs... etc,etc.;

Edited by Sosa
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1 hour ago, Sosa said:

Calling something "untethered powergaming" because it's not your playstyle is a bit of a reach, I don't call people "shameless validhunters" for rolling Security or "wall paint drying enthusiasts" for rolling Engineer. There should be a mutual respect to how many times Salvagers have helped out with Nukies - as well as blood reds in general raiding armory, shit, almost forgot Rat Kings, zombies, fellow Syndies, back when Space Dragons existed, helping engineers with repairs... etc,etc.;

That's the point I was making, what you've listed here I consider an issue in power creep for salvage/cargo. Salvage does all of the above yet has no accountability OOC or IC because they are not present or reliant on station, they can perform the roles of engineers with easy access to tools, insuls, materials and hardsuit. They can perform the roles of a paramedic for the same reason, they are actually better at fighting off nukies than security department due to having jetpacks and (multiple) lethal guns from essentially roundstart. There's just too much utility and power concentrated into one job that has no real responsibility or need for the rest of the station.

It's not meant as an insult to the players, you can't blame the players for how the job is designed.

Edited by Changeling
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13 hours ago, Sosa said:

People don't, or at least I don't, play salvager because it's easy syndie. Anything is easy Syndie. You can literally teleport a machine pistol into your hands and then buy over 100 bullets for it while wearing a web vest that doesn't slow you down and soaks 70% damage - as you are high on stimulants yelling at your assist objective to loot HoP's ID while your pet carp is munching on captain's dead body. 

Syndie Agent starting funds: 20 tc
C-20r cost: 25 tc

What?

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11 hours ago, Changeling said:

That's the point I was making, what you've listed here I consider an issue in power creep for salvage/cargo. Salvage does all of the above yet has no accountability OOC or IC because they are not present or reliant on station, they can perform the roles of engineers with easy access to tools, insuls, materials and hardsuit. They can perform the roles of a paramedic for the same reason, they are actually better at fighting off nukies than security department due to having jetpacks and (multiple) lethal guns from essentially roundstart. There's just too much utility and power concentrated into one job that has no real responsibility or need for the rest of the station.

It's not meant as an insult to the players, you can't blame the players for how the job is designed.

You cannot blame players for how the job is designed, I completely agree. You also cannot punish them for how it's designed. There's also not really any counter-arguments to them being a powerful force on the station because that firepower and expertise is necessary sometimes. Salvager weaponry and utilities are not locked behind a warden who is dead or SSD. You want to change how powerful salvagers are? Up the ante for Security (who got hardsuit buffs, btw.)

Why can salvagers do the same things paramedics can do? Because literally anybody can. Why can we fix walls? Because literally anybody can. What you're saying are "salvager specific issues" are just game issues. You can literally take a space pen, go out to a debris as a cargo tech, find a salv suit (especially if you know the debris well,) and from there on forward you are in a 50% piercing resist suit. You can then find meds, materials, and just walk around repairing things, healing people, or doing any of the examples above.

And I reiterate my point that wasn't refuted that engineers have similar, if not more dangerous, access. A silly knife (that you can get from maints loot, or get chef to make you a not as good one - alternatively find a butcher's cleaver) and a PKA (that you can just hack into salv and pick up anyway that is arguably a bust during combat if the opponent has literally *any* other ranged weapon) are perks to a job that is inherently more dangerous (fighting aliens.)

The only issue is how powerful a specific role is..? In a game with fleshed out and pixel movement combat? When expeditions and debris are being worked on? That... Yeah, I mean the power values/limitations for community members are all over the place, this is definitely a great example. Having a silly knife and PKA are literally no different than being able to toggle an APC trapping you in virology while I beat you to death with a toolbox. I reiterate that you can spawn a weapon into your hand at any moment as a Syndicate and that the notion of making any role (even atmos) have less TC is bizarre, but I digress.

Simple gameplay loop. Go on mission/debris -> kill space fauna -> come back with dope shit. It's literally the only 'dungeon crawling' esque job that's available and I genuinely don't see a reason to attempt to nerf the most fun jobs on the station because they are too strong. Forgive me for my power level, I know not what I do. I am a simple Salvage Specialist born before 1994 all I know is eat Cheese Honks and hack door without insuls.

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28 minutes ago, Sosa said:

There's also not really any counter-arguments to them being a powerful force on the station because that firepower and expertise is necessary sometimes.

There's a whole department dedicated to station defense, it's called security. It's also much better designed in terms of checks and balances placed on it and departmental cooperation. It has an entire section of rules dedicated to keeping it in check.

Salvage spawns, free toolbelt, free infinite space gun, free melee weapon, free armor, free jetpack, goes into space/shuttle and becomes virtually untouchable by anyone on station for the remainder of the shift. Exert a token effort and salvage gets insulated gloves and medkits. You can say salvage needs all of these to do their job, I agree they do in fact need all of this for their job.

The problem is that their job requires all of this to function. It's hard to find a tool that wouldn't be useful for salvage.

If you look at every other department, you can tell exactly what would be odd for them to have and potentially considered powergaming because there's no reason for them to have it or rush it. Not with salvage.

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Please for the love of god don't destroy the salvage department. Guns are not good weapons for spycraft and as far as im aware salvage cant find silenced pistols. Engineering can turn the entire station dark. Atmos has access to a fireaxe and can flood the station with plasma. Medical can make instakill death cocktails and easily mass produce enough to murderbone the station. Science can make bombs and make anoms go critical easily. Salvage has a very low skill floor and also a very low skill ceiling and is very necessary for new players exactly like you who see a gun and think "wow this is dangerous". Its also a great way to train new players to become robust so please dont smother this game to death with shitty rules.

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2 hours ago, f0x said:

Please for the love of god don't destroy the salvage department. Guns are not good weapons for spycraft and as far as im aware salvage cant find silenced pistols. Engineering can turn the entire station dark. Atmos has access to a fireaxe and can flood the station with plasma. Medical can make instakill death cocktails and easily mass produce enough to murderbone the station. Science can make bombs and make anoms go critical easily. Salvage has a very low skill floor and also a very low skill ceiling and is very necessary for new players exactly like you who see a gun and think "wow this is dangerous". Its also a great way to train new players to become robust so please dont smother this game to death with shitty rules.

Also salvage isnt supposed to own guns at all beyond protos without permission so them owning smgs is a failure of security not a failure fundamental to game mechanics. Nothing is stopping anyone from emagging cargo and getting a smg crate besides cargo employees.

SHADOW CHAPLAIN MONEY GANG

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2 hours ago, f0x said:

very necessary for new players exactly like you

If you want to be taken seriously, I recommend you change your attitude about approaching an argument.

 

11 minutes ago, f0x said:

them owning smgs is a failure of security not a failure fundamental to game mechanics

Especially when the very next post you make is as ignorant as this. There's no cameras on shuttles, cargo can dock a supply shuttle directly onto their salvage shuttle. Not even worth going into all the lack of viability of keeping track of what cargo is doing, from outside the cargo department, while also doing anything else as security.

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7 minutes ago, Changeling said:

Especially when the very next post you make is as ignorant as this. There's no cameras on shuttles, cargo can dock a supply shuttle directly onto their salvage shuttle. Not even worth going into all the lack of viability of keeping track of what cargo is doing, from outside the cargo department, while also doing anything else as security.

Security doesnt need to micromanage cargo, they just need to listen or listen to comms. On the servers I play everyone calls out any gunshots or explosions they hear near them, even firing a proto on the station gets salvage a unwelcome visit from sec.

SHADOW CHAPLAIN MONEY GANG

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