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ban after ahelping on Wizard's den Lizard


idontlikesand
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SS14 account: idontlikesand
Character name: Jonathan Morris
Type of Ban: game ban
Date of Ban and Duration: 3 days
Reason for Ban: "threatening to metagrudge a HoS over a failed demotion attempt and threatening to adminshop for a more favorable ruling"
Server you were playing on when banned: Wizard's den Lizard
Your side of the story: Yesterday i was playing a captain and people started talking about nukies, i went to check sec it was spaced. Hop and cmo came to me talk about that there might be nukies so i called red alert. HoS ignored me on command radio after i asked him if there were nukies because i suspected it after seeing the spaced sec and hop and cmo's suggestion. i threatened to demote him after getting mad at him ignoring my calls i even used the communications computer but there is a crucial thing, "failed demotion attempt" is simply ridiculous i even explained to the admin present that i decided not to demote him because i was simply angry for a short while and said "i might be exaggerating" and not demote him so it wasn't a failed demotion attempt. and that metagrudge threat is thing is also real but i was mad at the admin for not really caring about the hos killing me. just the day before this happened i talked to another admin about this matter and he explained to me every head has to approve to get rid of me as captain and hos just wanted to get rid of me with 3 heads' approval so i don't think his excuse of "they were not content with you" was just. And the threat of metagruding, not the actual deed, necessitates a ban ? which i forgot about the guy's name so even if i was unbanned i don't think i can metagruding for the life of me i only remember he was a lizard race. And that "favorable ruling" is something i deserved otherwise it means just anyone can murder the captain with 3 head' approval.
Why you think you should be unbanned: getting a ban is unjust when i was being a normal captain, staying in bridge, calling red alert at a potential threat, making announcement to remind people to turn on coordinates and not murdering anyone at all. then getting killed by the hos because cmo, hop and hos just wanted me gone because i threatened to demote him,mind you i decided against after considering it might be too much. the matter with me threatening to metagrudge might be wrong and it was a spur of the moment anger outburst from me but i think the admin has a part in for failing to mediate between the parties. If i get unbanned i will try to enjoy the game more and if i get angry just close it for a period instead of saying unnecessary things.
Anything else we should know: i feel that the "getting a more favorable ruling" part is biased because as i explained above i recently ahelped and asked one of the admins about deposing a captain and he told me that all the heads' had to agree to it which here they clearly did not so i had a right to adminshop it, if you can check my messages with that admin you should.

 

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Edited by idontlikesand
because i misread the dates.
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  • idontlikesand changed the title to ban after ahelping on Wizard's den Lizard

Hi, banning admin here and the administrator who watched part of this situation unfold and investigated it at your request. I cannot ultimately rule on this ban, but I will provide my own context. Let us get one thing clear immediately:

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This is your conversation with Chief_Engineer in regards to the "number of votes required to impeach the captain". Nowhere in this entire exchange did he say, as you told me, that it has to be every single head of staff voting yes (and where a head of staff abstaining or failing to vote is counted as no, as you tried to tell me).

Regardless of this exchange, I was the administrator handling the incident at the time. While I don't wish to step on another administrator's toes in regards to what they may have or may not have said for a ruling, that does not mean you can just disregard my own ruling on the situation in favor of another ruling another admin may have told you before. This is irrelevant because either you lied about what the other admin told you or did not remember it correctly. Let me retell this sequence of events that happened from my observational point of view which was interrupted a few times by handling administrator functions:

I have to handle an ahelp of a blatant self-antag and happen to be watching security while doing so. The HoS in this situation handles it well with his security team. At some point there is a callout of potential nuclear operatives. While handling something else, I stumble upon you having a standoff in front of the HoP's office with the HoS and approximately 15-20 people around you (in fact I happen to have a screenshot of this):

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You were openly threatening to demote the HoS for not answering the radio. This is, in my opinion, an extremely petty reason to try and initiate a demotion of your head of staff over, especially without trying to figure out what they were dealing with from their own end. This results in the above-pictured crowd and several people taking different sides. Most notably, the other heads of staff do not agree with your assessment. You say you "decided not to demote him", but I think this is more because the public and your other heads were against you in this mob and you realized that pushing forward would likely get you killed. I think this is the primary factor that caused you to "not demote" the HoS, not the fact that you thought better of it.

You decide to summon all heads of staff to the bridge to hold a vote to impeach you to satisfy the HoS who was getting ready to (rightfully) defend himself from an unjust attempted demotion. You are clinging on to your belief that every single head on the station needs to have a definitive "yes" vote to vote you out. As I have already stated and stated in the relay, as long as the reasoning is sound, I think a majority head of staff vote suffices, not a unanimous vote. In this case, the HoS, CMO, and HoP decide to vote you out. The CE and RD both abstain from voting and the QM could likely not be contacted. This means there were three votes to remove you, and three votes of "don't care" or abstain. Most notably, nobody is voting to keep you in place.

The HoS here (rightfully) decides that this has concluded majority of the heads no longer trust your leadership. The HoS requests that you surrender your items to facilitate a demotion. This results in a rapid escalation after you refuse to do so because you are still clinging on to the belief you need 100% vote. You refuse to surrender, the HoS attempts to cuff you, you move back, the HoS attempts to disabler you, you whip out your laser and start blasting, everyone else crits you in a justified escalation of force that you perpetuated at every step. This begins our ahelp transaction:

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You immediately start this exchange by admin-checking. You have been playing long enough to know this is an irrelevant question to ask.

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You immediately start with the "all heads need to say yes" line. This has already been mentioned, I will skip over it for now.

Your reason for demotion was extremely thin, if any at all. I don't think one instance of failure to answer the radio (which the other player stated you were using the general frequency which made it even harder to track) is a just reason to demote a head of staff. Your entire premise for this situation is already in shambles.

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I ask about escalation. To your credit, you did back off and try to handle things diplomatically, but then you immediately went back in the other direction as soon as diplomacy did not go in your favor. At this point I go and talk to the HoS. The HoS tells me the same chain of events I just described; you try to demote him over nothing, they vote you out, you resist attempts to be detained and escalate conflict into lethals, to which they responded in kind. The only possible fault I have in the HoS is not giving the admin relay a heads up of a possible mutiny or captain demotion about to happen, but that is minor in the grand scale of things.

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We'll skip over the explanation of why the deathsquad comment was completely ignored.

I explain the information I obtained from talking with the other party to you. You are still hung up on needing full votes. This leads into the second page of the relay:

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I explain my stance on the matter. Regardless of what another admin may have said, since I am handling the transaction, my stance should be the one you judge your actions against. If majority of the heads of staff do not want you to be leading them, they can majority vote you out. That is my simple take. My other explanation was that you were the primary instigator and catalyst for this event unfolding the way it did. You express you pretty much just want the HoS to stop being able to play the game because people took his side and not yours.

This leads into the elements of this ban, where you decide to throw a tantrum:

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I sincerely and truthfully dislike being told that you are going to go find someone else who will give you the outcome you want and that I "didn't want to do anything" after I spend ten minutes sorting out your little IC conflict and making sure I have the facts straight. I also do not like being told that you are going to go out of your way to blatantly break the rules and go metagrudge the other player in this interaction while at the same time hypocritically complaining that the HoS is not following the rules (even though you were in the wrong).

After this point I banned you for two days. Two days! I only gave you two days. In retrospect I should have probably been harsher, though I did decide after the fact that maybe a month break from command roles would change your thinking.

 

And let me just address a few bullet points of your appeal that have my noggin' joggin':

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And the threat of metagruding, not the actual deed, necessitates a ban ? which i forgot about the guy's name so even if i was unbanned i don't think i can metagruding for the life of me i only remember he was a lizard race.

Yes, threatening to break the rules will be dealt with in the same manner. I don't care what your excuse is. The possible scenarios here are you are threatening to break the rules and going to carry through with it, or threatening to break the rules to try and scare the other party into an action you want, neither of which I care for.

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And that "favorable ruling" is something i deserved otherwise it means just anyone can murder the captain with 3 head' approval.

This is taken out of context. The ruling here is heads of staff can "vote you out" with majority. I did not say the heads of staff can murder you. You facilitated your own murder by trying to blast someone non-forcibly trying to detain and demote you with your laser.

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the matter with me threatening to metagrudge might be wrong and it was a spur of the moment anger outburst from me

No, it isn't just "might be wrong". I assure you, it is wrong.

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but i think the admin has a part in for failing to mediate between the parties.

I talked to both parties involved in this dispute from an observer's standpoint and tried to look at both of your situations. I did not take any action because I did not believe the HoS acted unjustly from a captain threatening to demote him over virtually nothing. People are fallible, your heads of staff are allowed to make minor mistakes, they are human beings and players too, they are not going to be perfect. You do not have the right to demote whoever you want because they didn't do something minor.

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he told me that all the heads' had to agree to it which here they clearly did not so i had a right to adminshop it, if you can check my messages with that admin you should.

Not only were you dead wrong on this claim anyways, you do not have a "right to adminshop" anything. The administrators here are a collective team and we rule on things as a team. If two admins have a conflicting point of view on a situation, we will discuss it internally and decide how to uniformly address it if it is a problem. You do not get the "right" to run to another admin hoping they tell you yes when the admin you are dealing with tells you no.

 

I hope this clears everything up for whomever addresses this appeal.

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You immediately start this exchange by admin-checking. You have been playing long enough to know this is an irrelevant question to ask.

lonesoldier55 at this point i don't expect anything but i want to clear a few misunderstandings because i feel it is distasteful that you interpret pretty much so many things negatively. There is much stuff i don't know and i still don't know why this is an irrelevant question. I might have played this game a bit but i don't get why this is wrong. i am not in the discord server and i wanted to make sure i can be in contact with an admin instead of my message getting forwarded to discord.

 

1 hour ago, lonesoldier55 said:

Two days! I only gave you two days

you are right about this i just misread the minutes as hours so i assumed i got a longer ban than i normally would otherwise 2 days is indeed short this is an overlook on my part. you can check the unedited version of this post if you can.

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immediately went back in the other direction as soon as diplomacy did not go in your favor. 

look, i told him in looc chat to ahelp it to make sure, and if you check my past messages i ahelp a lot of stuff i am not sure of before doing it to check if it is endorsed by you guys. if he did it this whole thing would've been avoided.  you would give your verdic about this matter and if you deemed it fit that i was replaced then so be it but he didn't even listen and tried to cuff me and i attacked him while telling him to ahelp it.

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I think this is the primary factor that caused you to "not demote" the HoS, not the fact that you thought better of it.

you might see me as this malicious toxic guy but i really thought about how just demoting him because he didn't answer the radio was dumb after thinking it over because there was no actual threat around. however you may see it however you please, not that you'll believe me anyway.

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I sincerely and truthfully dislike being told that you are going to go find someone else who will give you the outcome you want.

again, i never intended to find a "backer" who'll give me a favorable outcome i just wanted to corraborate what the rules were as you have shown me above that memory was faulty. i broke a lot of rules unintentionally when i first began playing and so i just try to make sure what i know is correct and chief_engineer has been the most helpful admin towards me. but you may also interpret this however you wish i can't tell you what to think.

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This is taken out of context. The ruling here is heads of staff can "vote you out" with majority. I did not say the heads of staff can murder you

lthis is also out of context, i said they killed me because they took my weapon after stunning me so i wasn't really a threat anymore.

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1 hour ago, lonesoldier55 said:

Oh, I should also add, you don't seem to be the nicest player to other players as evidenced by this little gem I found in the OOC relay while digging through the ahelp logs.

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and not to mention this is not only irrelevant at all but also out of context also uncalled for. next time should i post an out of context chatlog of me teaching a greytider to show how great, awesome, kind-hearted, magnanimous.. etc. to make people think how much of a good guy i am ? (in case you interpret this the wrong way, this is a joke)

Edited by idontlikesand
typo fix
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I think it’s fair to give you the benefit of the doubt that you genuinely misremembered the circumstance surrounding what is required to demote the captain. I agree with both CE and lonesoldier’s judgment about the majority vote being both required and met in this circumstance. Lonesoldier’s point of nobody saying a word to the effect against your demotion is a strong point that I don’t think you can refute. So this seems to be a series of misunderstandings surrounding the lines of poor play.

This was a series of you being largely abrasive ingame and when your actions were called out you threatened to break the rules, which is the defining factor behind why you were ultimately gamebanned. You recognize that this is a problem. This ban is fundamentally sound and a two day duration for it is more than fair given the circumstances.

It feels rather disingenuous to claim that the circumstances of your demotion were out of nowhere or were unjustified. A captain threatening to demote a head over not answering a radio- even if you decided against it- is simply silly. And the subsequent public escalation and head vote was a proper way to respond to it. 
 

This ban holds and your appeal will be denied at this time. If you have no issue over the next two weeks following your ban ending, I encourage you to appeal again and we can discuss ending your head roleban early.

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